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Jesus fucking Christ stop making these.

@The two posts above

This is Meme Research. Stop shitposting.

@OP
Can you give some reasoning towards why not? The characters with entries already all have a fair amount of fanfare and search interest.

If it's notable, then it will have a page on this website. Deal with it.

Now, are you going to prove that FNaF characters are not notable enough to warrant an entry, or you're going to rant about it? Depending on your answer I may lock, or not, this thread.

Foxy at least deserved an entry. I can understand some apprehension to the others, but not Foxy. He's everywhere.

People seem to think an entry is a big deal or sacred and that only worthy memes may have a page, which is total BS. And really there is no limit to the number of pages KYM can have so there's nothing stopping it from going a wiki route and having more detailed pages for things glanced over in the main pages, which isn't a bad idea.

we have had this before

remember the villager and wii fit trainer entries?

I don't understand the articles on the FNaF characters (full disclosure I've never played a single FNaF game) back when My Little Pony was massively popular, we didn't have articles on every Friendship is Magic character.

I swear if someone makes a BB entry KYM will implode on itself.
Anyway why not make a article for each character? They've all had significant search interest and spread. Thing is with these articles is i'm hearing everyone's call to deadpool but literally no reasons why lol. I keep hearing it's "overkill" but is it really? There's no limit to articles so it's fine.
If your saddened by a lack of other characters that you've arbitrarily decided is more important/more worthy of being a meme then feel free to make an article.

I feel like having multiple pages for things that all ultimately come from the same (admittedly well-recieved) series is sorta pointless. If I saw something about [FNaF character here] and I checked the article, I wouldn't want to have to sift through 6 more to get to the character I want. Plus this causes issues with image galleries and sorting media. If the characters are all popular enough, but only because FNaF as a whole is, just stick 'em on the same page. Maybe KYM just needs to learn to make articles bigger?

Thing is, Springtrap is the least popular of the cast as of now. We have an entry for Springtrap. So after that it was quite obvious someone like Foxy, who is the most popular, deserved an entry as well.

But with the least popular character (Springtrap) having an entry, what's stopping us to create entries for the entire cast? And following on that logic, what's stopping us to not create entries for the entire MLP cast, or all the Homestuck trolls, or the entire friggin Smash roster?

I know there is support for ideas like that. But talking like a Wikipedia doesn't make us a Wikipedia. As much as I support "more is better", I also believe there is a thing that is "too much". We're KYM, our writers are very limited, so we shouldn't take on more than we can handle.

Should characters get their own entries if they show notable spread? Yes. But I fear that because of this we kinda got ourselves stuck because people can create character entries for pretty much everyone, piss poor quality, and no mod can deadpool it.

Since when did we started to place quantity above quality?

I seriously don't think each and every character deserve a page. Personally, I think there are undocumented memes out there more worth the time and energy. Look at this entry for example. It's clearly a meme, and it has been undocumented until now while it has existed for literally years. Our writers should start digging around for these memes instead of scraping the barrels of fandoms for characters imo.

On a similar note, I'm a little torn on the recent Skeletor entry for a very similar reason. We shouldn't delete it, but right now it brings the number of people/character entries in the researching column to 4 out of 5 slots, and I feel that more emphasis should be put on meme articles instead.

Yeah that's the only issue, there aren't enough writers on the site to sustain such thorough documentation. If someone has time and is willing and makes an article good however, they shouldn't be stopped, and should even be encouraged to keep doing so.

I feel we (Users, Mods, Admins, Etc) all have the equal right to have our content be fairly judged as to what was ultimately notable. If we can't prove an entry was ultimately a Meme/Subculture/Etc and had no notable mutations outside of it's short-lived life, it should be deadpooled and merged with it's parent entry when applicable. Regardless of who made it.

That being said, give Springtrap some time. He'll get what's coming to him if he doesn't make a big enough mutation to warrant his own entry.

I plan on making articles for all the sub-memes I mentioned in the Skeletor entry over the next few days.

We need to make an article to every thing from FNAF.
Even the Desk-Fan.

Why everyone forgets the desk-fan?

this is going to happen now

The "prove it's not notable" argument really does not make sense. Making the claim that it is notable is what requires proof. You can't prove to me that the Earth is not flat, or that God is not real. The burden of proof is on the entry maker, not nay-sayers. Why does an admin get a free pass on these issues? If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.

And really there is no limit to the number of pages KYM can have so there’s nothing stopping it from going a wiki route and having more detailed pages for things glanced over in the main pages, which isn’t a bad idea.

Wikipedia deletes pages that lack notability. That is why it has retained its quality over the past decade-and-a-half. The problem is not lack of space, it is clutter. The more articles there are, the less likely they will be kept up to database standards.

Agreed. Foxy needed one, but not the rest. People seem to think this game has way more influence than it really does, or at least that's the impression I'm getting. I rarely hear or see any talk of it outside KYM, and a few other forums.

I've always been against character entries, for main characters at least. I mean of course Freddy is popular on the internet, his name is in the title, but there's a point when that kind of character fandom is just not worth talking about even if it is popular. Like I'd argue by that logic if we look at, say, Super Mario, we should be making entries for Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Toad etc., I mean they all have internet fandoms. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I really don't think character entries should be made unless there is something unique to set it apart, such as, say, Waluigi

I mean they all have internet fandoms. Maybe I’m just old fashioned, but I really don’t think character entries should be made unless there is something unique to set it apart, such as, say, Waluigi

Essentially what I believe as well.

In the past whenever an entry was made for some smaller memes, there were at times users that brought up the idea to add a Fad category. We were always against that idea because it would generate unnecessary clutter and just open the floodgates (not to forget fad is just a simplified definition of what makes something a meme).

"More is better" is easy to say, but just because we can doesn't mean we should. Essentially everything is a meme, and everything spreads over the internet nowadays. But we're not a Wikipedia of everything, even Wikipedia doesn't document everything, and we're documenting internet culture (which you won't find on Wikipedia).

We don't have the manpower to broaden our scope of research as much as we wished we could, so I find it better to keep the focus on the areas we can cover. By broadening we're essentially forced to divert attention away from the areas we already covered, which in return goes exactly against a good encyclopedia because you're only leaving holes. We're a bit too opportunistic at times, and nobody can live up to the expectations we're making for ourselves. Even now we still have many holes in our entries, with many memes still undocumented. I rather see those covered (while of course welcoming fresh memes with open arms).

But to go back to what this thread started: FNAF. By the idea that character entries need something unique, Foxy deserved that entry (he became the mascot while the game is not even about him), I'm willing to throw a +1 Wait on Springtrap (explosive spread other characters can't compare to), but not Freddy. The spread of a main character is directly linked to the spread of the vidya/anime they belong to, making a subculture entry essentially an entry for its main cast. Have we forgotten about headers?

Our writers should start digging around for these memes instead of scraping the barrels of fandoms for characters imo.

our writers are very limited, so we shouldn’t take on more than we can handle.

forced to divert attention away

All of these arguments suffer from the same flaw. Essentially, what is being assumed here is that we have a dedicated team of writers with a small amount of time that must be rationed into carefully prioritized entries. The reality, and what is being ignored here, is that the writers of these characters entries would most likely not have written an entry at all had they not been given the opportunity to write said character entry of their choice. For instance, the OP of the Freddy Fazbear entry, Foxy the Pirate Fox, had not written an entry for months up until that point. If we somehow went back in time and told him not to make that entry, the time and effort he spent on it wouldn't magically cause a more deserving entry to appear in its place. We'd end up with nothing where there could have been a character entry.

The vast majority of writers make entries because they're interested in that particular character, not for the sake of entry-making.

Thus although I agree that it may not be ideal to actively encourage our more active writers (such as entry mods) to work on character entries, absolutely no benefit comes of discouraging casual writers from researching characters they are interested in.

Making the claim that it is notable is what requires proof.

I agree, hence why my standard for allowing entries to exist has always been can the OP provide evidence of spread? If they can legitimately beef up the "Spread" section of an entry to show the widespread presence of the subject online, I see no reason to object to them creating the entry.

I’m willing to throw a +1 Wait on Springtrap (explosive spread other characters can’t compare to)

"Explosive" has never been, and hopefully will never be, a necessary adjective to justify "spread". To say that Springtrap's spread is more notable than Freddy's spread purely because it has been "explosive" is rationalization. I prefer to look at it the conventional way: Freddy has more fanart, videos, songs etc. dedicated to him than Springtrap, hence he has more spread and is more deserving of an entry. Whether or not said spread was "explosive" is nowhere near as relevant as the actual magnitude of the spread.

Talking about new entries…

The reality, and what is being ignored here, is that the writers of these characters entries would most likely not have written an entry at all had they not been given the opportunity to write said character entry of their choice.

Thus although I agree that it may not be ideal to actively encourage our more active writers (such as entry mods) to work on character entries, absolutely no benefit comes of discouraging casual writers from researching characters they are interested in.

This argument essentially suffers from the flaw that you assume we automatically accept the entry and research and expand it. If we end up deadpooling the entry, basically rejecting it, you're telling the user that they pretty much wasted their time and that we reject their ideas. This isn't going to keep them motivated to write more entries in the future, but might just even kill their motivation to try again.

Also user writers aren't always delivering mod quality, that's no secret. But if no mod is going to hop in to complete the job, odds are you are going to keep a poor unfinished entry. Do you want poor and unfinished to represent the site?

What value is there in entries like that? This is exactly that unnecesary clutter people don't want.

hence why my standard for allowing entries to exist has always been can the OP provide evidence of spread? If they can legitimately beef up the “Spread” section of an entry to show the widespread presence of the subject online, I see no reason to object to them creating the entry.

Except this assumes that we actually follow what the Deadpool description reads, being that an incomplete entry or incomplete research also warrants a Deadpool. But we don't do that, we Deadpool if we know that the entry either a) isn't internet culture or b) not an entry for KYM. Do you deadpool poorly researched entries that actually cover legit memes?

you’re telling the user that they pretty much wasted their time and that we reject their ideas. This isn’t going to keep them motivated to write more entries in the future, but might just even kill their motivation to try again.

When has hurt feelings ever been an obstacle to deadpooling? If the entry is extremely poorly written, with no evidence of spread, then we deadpool just like we do to any other article. If someone willing to work on it comes along later, they can apply for editorship, get it fixed up, and ask for a mod to put it back into submission. What's the problem?

odds are you are going to keep a poor unfinished entry.

You seem to be assuming that I want character entries to be given special treatment. Absolutely not; if the entry is poor, then once again, deadpool it just like any other entry would be deadpooled. If it's nice and well written, like what Don created or what the BB entry is on its way to becoming right now, we keep it. Simple – standard procedure. I frankly don't understand what you're trying to get at here.

Do you deadpool poorly researched entries that actually cover legit memes?

The deadpool flag literally says "This entry has been rejected due to incompleteness…". In my opinion, yes, horrible entries on potentially legitimate memes should be placed into deadpool unless someone is actively working on them. Once again, the entry can be undeadpooled later if someone comes along and fixes it up – the deadpool flag itself even asks users to "request editorship to help maintain this entry".

EDIT: honestly RM, this conversation would be better off in the privacy of the mod forum. When's that new thread coming?

In my opinion, character entry only makes sense if given character is particularly popular within subculture and potentially generates many submemes. However, most character entries are too small and not significant enough, and it's probably better to make them part of parent entries until they actually grow big enough. And remember that it makes image upload more ambiguous. If we properly tag images, then there's just one gallery needed for all of them most of the time. I'd recommend to merge at least some character entries with their parents. But let's be more specific.

Five Nights at Freddy's is not very long entry. Only few characters in this subculture are especially popular and those descriptions fit well into main entry since they are directly related to games. There is little point in making specific entries for it's characters unless someone can prove that particular character has generated more than 3 related submemes.

Derpy Hooves is much longer and more descriptive, and there are many submemes related to her. It makes more sense to keep it since it describes all the stuff related to this particular character that don't necessarily fit My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic entry, such as controversy part.

Making general rule "character entries are allowed" or "character entries are not allowed" is overkill. We need to look at specific examples and make individual decisions. If we let all character entries exist, we will end up with tons of short entries that don't help much. If we disallow all character entries, we will lose valuable content or overly extend main entries.

You seem to be assuming that I want character entries to be given special treatment.

I don't think I gave away that idea. I said that the quality of a user-submitted entry often largely depends on the help of a mod or staff.

But we're now going into the area of when we should deadpool in general (and possibly hide), an entirely different topic. We'll need to get back to that one in a different discussion, because it is true that for years already we aren't using the Deadpool section as the way it is described. If you intend to change the way we're using the feature, feel free to start a seperate topic.

EDIT: honestly RM, this conversation would be better off in the privacy of the mod forum. When’s that new thread coming?

What do you hope to achieve with being that elitist? The topic is entry creation, so it also involves users. Their opinion is also worth something, and they have the right to voice it. If you want to discard user arguments, please return to the comment section.

I never understood threads in the mod forum if they don't apply to just mods. Like Meme Research in the mod forum? We have an entire board for that stuff.

I intend to use this thread as a public discussion. Once it's finished I will make a summarized version in the mod forum, and from there run it by a majority vote and staff opinion. I believe this is the fairest course of action.

I intend to use this thread as a public discussion.

We've had a large amount of this discussion in private already and it's not like anyone else is participating in our little back-and-forth at the moment. Also – Don has said that he rarely checks the Discussion forum, and his opinion is pretty much the key to resolving this since he made the Springtrap entry. Well whatever, it was just a throwaway suggestion. Not important and I don't intend to pursue this

I don’t think I gave away that idea.

Mostly when you said "you assume we automatically accept the entry and research and expand it", which I didn't assume. But I digress.

If you intend to change the way we’re using the feature, feel free to start a seperate topic.

Why must it be a separate topic? As has been (IMO) adequately demonstrated in your posts and mine, the threshold for "accepting" an entry is pretty much the main issue of contention in this debate. Your objections regarding clutter can be resolved by reworking our standards for deadpooling, my personal standards for entry acceptance only matter if deadpool is used in its intended way, and so on. Basically, we can't come to a conclusion unless we address this topic right here and now.

Heading off to bed now. I'l check tomorrow to see if there's anything more I can add.

I don't think we should ignore or throw away character threads, as my opinion that if we had more resources we could make more character articles still stands, but I agree that a main character like Freddy should not be documented since it just causes confusion and is almost a re-write of the subculture it comes from, especially if it's a titular character. Like I wouldn't mind Luigi or Peach or Bowser articles if someone was willing to make them and made them well with proof of spread, but making an entry for the character Mario while there's a Super Mario subculture would be beyond stupid.

That's all I really want to say. Overall Particle shares my point of ciew and is advocating it better than I ever could so I'll just step back.

The deadpool flag literally says “This entry has been rejected due to incompleteness…”. In my opinion, yes, horrible entries on potentially legitimate memes should be placed into deadpool unless someone is actively working on them. Once again, the entry can be undeadpooled later if someone comes along and fixes it up – the deadpool flag itself even asks users to “request editorship to help maintain this entry”.

Hem, well, that's your opinion, ma'am. Because, on the contrary (call me old-fashioned for this), as we had a discussion about this some time ago, other staff members and mods (myself included) thought it was better to let entries that are poorly written albeit from potential valid memes in submissionland in order to get to them and work on them faster that way. That's also why I undeadpooled some entries on my own.

thats because there are a like a shit ton of mlp characters, fnaf has only like 9 characters, not that big in comparison

I have mixed opinions about all this. Sure, generally the more articles the better, and as Particle Mare said "the time and effort he spent on it wouldn’t magically cause a more deserving entry to appear in its place." I'm kinda of the mindset that the biggest problem with articles is that people don't try to write them. Coming solely from an image perspective, I'd rather have a gallery to hold a specific meme with a poor article than no article and gallery at all. This is usually in regards to more traditional memes for me, but the point still stands.

However, I'm more with 21 in regards to characters. Sure, we do have character entries, but they typically are for more than just "the fandom is popular, and this character is popular in the fandom". With Derpy Hooves and Doctor Whooves, they both had personalities and traits developed on the internet to the point that the show made references to the fan incarnations. They would only be a pony in the background if it wasn't for the internet. Something like say Applejack, however, is just Applejack, and is popular because the show itself is popular. Another example is Kyubey. He has enough spread (even outside of specific fandom discussions) and looks unique enough that people who have never watched Madoka Magica can recognize him. There is also the whole "Why do people hate something that looks cute so much" thing going for him. I think he is fine to have entry for. Sayaka Miki is semi-popular, but only because Madoka Magica as a whole is popular. Basically as RandomMan said, if "The spread of a main character is directly linked to the spread of the vidya/anime they belong to" it likely isn't meriting of an article more than literally everything else in within that subculture. Sure, we could have pages for every pony, anime character, and game NPC, but at some point that really seems to deviate from the goal of the site. It would also be pretty much impossible to keep consistent good quality articles doing this.

Slightly unrelated, but I found it interesting that Don tried to justify having character entries with this comment despite the fact that only two of those are actually character entries, the others being full subcultures or specific memes that are associated with a character.

gnolex wrote

Making general rule “character entries are allowed” or “character entries are not allowed” is overkill. We need to look at specific examples and make individual decisions. If we let all character entries exist, we will end up with tons of short entries that don’t help much. If we disallow all character entries, we will lose valuable content or overly extend main entries.

I agree, and I think everyone does. I think we could make some general guidance for when a character entry is merited, because as of now, it's pretty much a free for all. Hopefully the mods an admins can work on something in regards to this.

As for current FNaF pages:
Foxy does seem to be the most famous one of the bunch, despite him not being the titular character, so I think he's good. Personally, I don't know if BB should be deadpooled and I think he would be the next best one to have entry over. This is more of a gut feeling than anything tangible though, so feel free to leave him in deadpool for the time being. The others have pretty much been explained why they are not really significant, and I pretty much agree with the points already made. (Edit: I don't know enough about the fan off the top of my head to say yay or nay on it. I'll try to look into it a bit tonight)

There actually is a level of justification for this. The fan is kind of an Ensemble Darkhorse.
Its value as an object besides just a scenery prop is perpetuated entirely by the fandom(no pun intended). I do agree with OP on some level though, we don't need an entry on, say, Springtrap, just like we don't need an entry on Rainbow Dash. Yes, they're important, they're primary characters after all. However, their popularity in and of itself is not a meme. They're primary characters in something popular, therefore its not out of the ordinary for them to have a level of popularity. Their importance comes from being actually important, not because fans latched on to them.

I think is just make even more clusterfuck when we already ahve some clusterfuck of useless or outdated entries.

Foxy does deserved the entry, because all the things that came from him. Springtrap is…..meh. The only reason he's currently some-what popular is beacuse none of the formers characters are there "in the normal way".

But other than those…..it will be just a clusterfuck of entries that will serve not purpose other than divide the images and videos sections. It's the same sitaution with the Hyrule Warriors entry: if we already have the main entry (in Foxy's and Springtrap's case the FNAF entry), then there's no mayor reason to create another one for each sub-entry of it.

I'd say character entries should be treated like meme entries--if they've become widely used and recognized across the internet and essentially "broken" out of their fandom, like Derpy, Kyubey, etc. than they probably deserve their own article. Otherwise, either shove all the characters into a single article, or even more preferred, just put them in the main entry for the piece of media.

This is KYM, save the character stuff for the fandom wikis.

Foxy? Yes.
Freddy? Maybe, leaning no.
Springtrap? No.
The fan? Add a mention of it in the main FNaF article as an ironic meme or something.

Just my two cents.

My opinion?

I feel like there is too much saturation regarding character specific entries, and not just the FNAF ones, smash bros character entries like Wii fit villager and Ridley have been a problem too. I find they can be summed up briefly in the main entry instead.

So yeah, I'm not a fan of character entries anymore.

This is called Fan Myopia

On-topic here's the thing, we have entries on say Derpy Hooves and such because they have proven to be memes, However that does not mean that every character deserves that treatment. Not every character is meme incarnate like say, Don. Characters becomes memes if memes are made cerebrating or mocking them, but there is only one memes from a character (like say, Headless Mami) than the character is sill not a meme.

That say we don't really know unless we try, time will tell if FNaF will fade into obscurity or not. Of course if the floodgates ate to be opened, than you cannot reasonably expect the mods or other users to help you with your character page, for they might be too busy with other characters.

Basically: if you want to do something like this, remember that the onus is on you, the entry writer to prove the charterer is popular or memetic enough to be a meme.

If you want to cry about your karma, do it on your wall. Please stay on topic in this thread.

STOP THE MADNESS

Honestly nobody is disagreeing with you, but the fact that you keep going back to whine about your karma is making people go and downvote all of your posts. My advice? Stop posting in this thread.

Okay so after reading through this thread, can we agree that:

1. We can neither allow a broad "characters permissible" or "characters denied" rule. We need precise criteria

2. Whether or not we should write entries about characters comes down to specific conditions, not unlike other memes: does it have spread, does it have fame, does it have mutations, etc.

3. Simply being part of a popular fandom is not merit enough for making an entry for a character.

4. Becoming known outside a fandom and generating its own memes/submemes and mutating into other memes is merit enough for making an entry for a character

5. A character entry should detail what memes are created around the character and how that character has spread across the internet

6. A character entry should not exist just to discuss the character itself as that information can go into parent subculture articles or other wiki's

Does this sound right and fair?

@Blue

That's actually exactly what I think it should be. I couldn't have summed it up better.